The Bible and Self-determination

One of the many problems with the Calvinist arguments that LFW doesn’t exist is that if LFW doesn’t exist, God doesn’t have LFW. But scripture grants no quarter to those who claim that God doesn’t have LFW. The first verse in scripture claims that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Genesis 1:1) We either understand this by faith, or we do not. (Hebrews 11:3)

Consider God’s first action. By definition, no act of God preceded that first act. So no causes preceded that action. Rather, God self-determined that action, by performing it. Thus, contrary to Calvinism, self-determining power exists.

Now the Calvinist might object – how is this to be explained? Does it even make sense? But wait. The scripture says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Atheists might doubt the existence of a first cause, but it is contrary to the faith to doubt that God created the world in the beginning.

Perhaps the Calvinist might backpedal and say, yes God has self-determining power, but man does not. That’s worth discussing, but that statement grants that self-determination can and does exist. Self-determination is logical and all arguments that claim self-determination is illogical are false.

With that in mind, let’s look at Turretinfan’s 4 questions about LFW (link).

1) Is it the LFW position that the sum (or product) of all preceding causes(including the state of man's heart) does not determine the choice, but that
given that same exact set of preceding causes (both external and internal) man
could have chosen otherwise? This question is important, because otherwise the
argument is just so much straw-man-defeating, in which we shouldn't be investing
any time.


Yes. Again – look at God’s creation. If causal forces preceded and necessitated His creative act, then creation wasn’t in the beginning, was it?

2) Can we meaningfully speak of reasons for choices, reasons that explain the choices?


Yes. Let’s look at the choosing process as Paul describes it in Philippians 1.

21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell.
23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ,
for that is far better. 24But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your
account.


Paul 1) considered both alternatives, 2) projected the consequences of the alternatives, 3) saw the good aspects of both alternatives and 4) was pressed by both alternatives. Paul identified good reasons to choose either alternative, and both alternatives were influencing him to choose them. So after the choice, we can identify one as the indeterminate cause or more commonly: “the reason”. Our self-determining ability required the indeterminate cause and acted in favor of it. Looking for the reason we choose something is looking for the indeterminate cause our self-determining ability required and acted upon.

3) If we can, how can we do so consistently with the concept of libertarian free will?


By admitting that something doesn’t have to determine a choice to be a reason for the choice.

4) So why not just define Free Will as Calvinists typically do, as man choosing in accordance with his desires?


We do not object to the idea that we choose according to our desire – when that notion is properly understood. What we object to is the idea of determinism.

Let’s look briefly at the relation between desire and choice. The Greek term thelo is used for both desire and choice in the New Testament. They seem scarcely distinct, but it’s easiest to see the difference between them when you want something but don’t choose it. Jonathan Edwards saw them both as “willingness”, but desire is “indirect willingness” and has a remote goal and choice is just “willingness” and has a proximate goal. Desire is indirect in that a drunk doesn’t want to avoid drinking, he wants to avoid the bad consequences of drinking. Desire is remote, in that the drunk’s desire is with respect to a future time. “Some day I will stop drinking.”

Understood in this way, saying we choose according to our desire, is really just saying we choose what we choose. The expression really isn’t helpful, as it doesn’t add anything to our understanding. But it’s true, so we don’t object to the expression, even if it’s impractical to use it. What we object to is determinism.

Comments

Anonymous said…
You wrote:

"Consider God’s first action. By definition, no act of God preceded that first act. So no causes preceded that action. Rather, God self-determined that action, by performing it. Thus, contrary to Calvinism, self-determining power exists.

I WOULD STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH THAT ASSERTION.

YES, YOU ARE RIGHT TO SAY THAT NOTHING PRECEDES GOD'S ACTION.

ON THE OTHER PART, THOUGH, THERE IS A STRONG SENSE THAT THERE WAS A PRECEEDING ACT ON THE PART OF A "CREATION", AS IN, LUCIFER. I SUBMIT VERSE TWO OF GENESIS ONE FOR MY PROOF TEXT.

You wrote:

"Now the Calvinist might object – how is this to be explained? Does it even make sense? But wait. The scripture says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Atheists might doubt the existence of a first cause, but it is contrary to the faith to doubt that God created the world in the beginning."

NOTHING ANYONE DOUBTS SUPERCEDES GOD AND HIS SOVEREIGNTY TO DO AS HE SEES FIT. JUST READ THE BOOK OF JOB IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS ABOUT IT.

You wrote:

"Perhaps the Calvinist might backpedal and say, yes God has self-determining power, but man does not. That’s worth discussing, but that statement grants that self-determination can and does exist. Self-determination is logical and all arguments that claim self-determination is illogical are false."

HERE, I POSE THAT YOU NOW HAVE FALLEN PREY TO SATAN'S SCHEME, THE SAME SCHEME HE USED AGAINST EVE AND THEN ADAM TO MAKE THEIR OWN DEATH SELF DETERMINATIONS. YOU SEEM TO EXALT YOURSELF TOO TO THE SAME EQUATION AS GOD HERE BY ASSERTING YOUR OWN SELF DETERMINATION. YOU ASSERT THAT YOU TOO HAVE SELF DETERMINATION.

YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT, HOWEVER, UNLIKE YOU, GOD CAN DO THIS:::>

Pro 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.
Pro 16:5 Everyone who is arrogant in heart is an abomination to the LORD; be assured, he will not go unpunished.

AND SO I HUMBLY JUDGE THAT YOU HAVE RISEN TO A LEVEL OF ARROGANCE WORTH THAT OF BEING CAST DOWN LIKE THE ENEMIES OF GOD AND MAN:::>

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool."

AND THOSE WORDS WERE CONFIRMED BY PETER:::>

Act 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.
Act 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.
Act 2:34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
Act 2:35 until I make your enemies your footstool.'

I WILL ASSERT THAT JAMES ARMINIUS GAVE TOO MUCH SELF DETERMINATION TO HIMSELF AND TOO, MANY HAVE FOLLOWED HIS SUIT.
Godismyjudge said…
Dear Natamllc,

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond. I couldn't tell from your response if you thought God has self-determining power or not.

This statement made me think you disagree:

Me: "Consider God’s first action. By definition, no act of God preceded that first act. So no causes preceded that action. Rather, God self-determined that action, by performing it. Thus, contrary to Calvinism, self-determining power exists.

Thee: I WOULD STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH THAT ASSERTION....THERE IS A STRONG SENSE THAT THERE WAS A PRECEEDING ACT ON THE PART OF A "CREATION", AS IN, LUCIFER.


But on the other hand, this statement made me think you agree with me:

Thee: YOU SEEM TO EXALT YOURSELF TOO TO THE SAME EQUATION AS GOD HERE BY ASSERTING YOUR OWN SELF DETERMINATION. YOU ASSERT THAT YOU TOO HAVE SELF DETERMINATION.

YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT, HOWEVER, UNLIKE YOU, GOD CAN DO THIS


Would you mind clarifying that point so I can know how to respond to the rest of your post?

As for me falling prey to Satan's scheme, don't you think that brothers in the Lord can disagree on this issue?

God be with you,
Dan
Anonymous said…
Dan,

God determines.

There is no need for my "self" determination. Godliness and contentment is great gain.

Whatever I determine God deals with just like He has dealt with Lucifer's self determination.

Yes, I "can" determine. Yes, everyone has "self" determination. There is no need though for me or you to determine anything for self. God has already done that for us. He created us. His Way is all that is necessary. There is no need for any additional self determination although we are free to be that stupid.

No, I cannot create the wicked for destruction like God can and is quoted in the earlier post from Proverbs 16.

Let me quote Peter and ask you to explain what you believe he means:::>

1Pe 1:6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials,

I point to the phrase: "IF NECESSARY".
Godismyjudge said…
Dear Natamllc,

I think it means God is about to test their faith.

God be with you,
Dan
Anonymous said…
Well, so Dan,

now what?
Anonymous said…
It could be argued that from John 1 that the Word, being with God in the beginning before anything was made, was with God. This could lead to a stance that the Word is God's determining attribute.

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