God's self-love and first act
This post is part of Turretinfan's and my ongoing debate regarding God's freewill, with responses to TF's questions here. Hopefully, TF will agree to a chat.
Gabcast! Dan's blog #8
Here's the links I talk about (link) and (link).
God be with you,
Dan
Gabcast! Dan's blog #8
Here's the links I talk about (link) and (link).
God be with you,
Dan
Comments
well first off, that surely was clearer and easier to receive but again you do yourself no justice to debate this way.
I am struggling with several things after listening to this gabcast.
I hope I can recall them all? I will see.
My first trouble is centered around this, the concept opened to us as creatures with a limited ability:
1Co 2:15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
1Co 2:16 "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
Somewhere in the gabcast, where I would be guessing, but somewhere in the gabcast you do a question and answer regarding God, His self Love of Himself.
If I understood you, I agreed with your answer, "no", however, I believe my answer has more weight to it than yours.
You also in the last bit on simplicity made a reasonable assertion but I offer the above verses from 1 Corinthians 2 to refute your claim that we "do not know" nor can we comprehend God fully".
I believe your assertion is an error in light of Paul's writings at 1 Corinthians 2.
Back to this concept of self Love then. Does God "Love" Himself?
No.
Can God 'Love' Himself?
No.
Consider the Apostle Paul's understanding of Love and his epistle touching on this matter:
2Ti 3:1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty.
2Ti 3:2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
Clearly God does not have "Self" Love. Just as God cannot learn, neither can He be selfish in any act or decree.
Here is the revelation of God's Love. It is "selfless" Love. God is. God is Eternally Three Persons Who could according to Their "Own" purposes create a "Body" and dwell as wholly Adam's posterity. Only One of these Three created a "Body" and dwelt among Adam's race.
God the Father, when He "first" loved me, gave me a most Gracious Gift, the ability to Love Him.
Was His "act" "self motivated"?
No.
What then is the "Gift" of God? The gift is my ability to do something "to" God that He cannot do, 'LOVE' Him!
Yes, I can Love God now. He "first" loved me.
Yes, I can now understand the Love of God as a "human" because Christ, the Eternal Son, Who left His Eternal Weight and Glory and became a "man" demonstrated "how" to Love as God Loves.
In John's Gospel 3:16 we see "How" God "so" loved the world.
But rather, I will point to 1 John 3:14-16 so as to make my assertion of the "free" Gift of Eternal Life, that is, "knowing" the Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He sent.
In verse 14 of 1 John 3, the Greek Word, Love/agapeo is used.
In verse 16 of 1 John 3, the Greek word, Love/agape is used.
What's the big deal here?
Well, consider that in verses 14 and 15 the Greek Word for "life" is life/zoe, and in verse 16 the Greek Word for "life" is life/psuche.
The mystery is solved when you take the time to consider the reality of what is being taught here.
God is.
God is Eternal.
God can only act with Selfless Love.
God the Father selflessly loves God the Son and the Holy Ghost.
God the Son....
God the Holy Ghost....
This is God's attribute and supernature unlike ours.
Our attribute and nature is fallen no matter how good we are and loving and caring and thoughtful and selfless we are, our nature simply is fallen.
Christ came into this world with a "created" "fallen" "Adamic" nature, a soul and body and flesh.
I came into this world with the same created fallen Adamic nature.
The difference is "my spirit" was created and Christ's "Spirit" was not. His Spirit is Eternal.
Christ came to save the Elect. He did not come to save the reprobate.
So, God does not act or love or decree from a fallen state, selfishly. I do. So do you.
Can I know God? Yes I can and according to the Holy Ghost through the writings of Paul the Apostle, I now "have" gifted to me, the "Mind of Christ" and can know all things.
In fact, when you read 1 Corinthians 13 the idea is opened up by the Apostle that some "know" all things, yet without God's "Love". Hmmmmmm?
Ok, there was one other thing just on the tip of my brain that I wanted to comment on and I am trying real hard right now to remember it without rewinding your gabcast and listening to the whole cast to remember it. Oh well, I thought as I typed here above it would come to me.
It probably will after I hit the comment button. So don't be surprised if I have another comment after.
Oh, yes, thank you memory! I wanted to note that I do not see any variance between God's "acts" and God's "decrees".
There, these are the three things I wanted to comment on after listening to this gabcast. I hasten to say, I don't believe you have moved the ball down the field any more this time than the last few gabcasts! Oh well, maybe TF will have a different view. He usually does on a lot of Theology than me! :)
michael
But we have to be carefull in taking those ideas to their logical conclusions.
There is some baggage that comes with the idea of Divine simplicity. And that is the idea of God being "static", locked in some type of "stasis" or just being "inactive".
This is why the christian east never really embraced the view of Divine simplicity.
For if one advances the doctrine of "immutability" too mean more than just not changing in regards to "charactor" but also in actual "movement", then you will eventually run into a brick wall.
If one takes the Platonic idea too seriously than one must say that God can't be perfect if He moves to create. And one will run into the problem of Modalism or Arianism when God partakes of Flesh. For that too is a change.
This is one of the reasons why the christian gnostics had a hard time in believing that God become man. To them, God couldn't do such a thing because that would mean he wouldn't be perfect, anything that moves can't be perfect in their eyes. And since matter moves, it's imperfect. So how can a "perfect God partake of "matter"?
offcourse they had the extra belief that matter was evil, but at this time I am unsure if that had anything to do with the fact that they believed "matter" to be imperfect because it "changed/moves".
So be carefull to not embrace the logical conclusions of the doctrine of "Divine simplicity".
The east blames Saint Augustine in regards to that. I don't know all the details but they point the finger at him.
but yeah, we have to be careful to not embrace it's logical conclusions. I personally don't hold to it. ...for the reasons I stated above.
But if you hold to it, you gotta be careful in your logic, because you will set yourself up in a corner that will be hard to get out of.
So be careful,
Take care and God bless
JNORM888
JNORM888
If you refer to an earlier comment I state exactly what you conclude. However, that is from the point of view as "human".
The other side of this mystery is as a "Spirit filled" Christian, now "conjoined" to Christ. Being "now" conjoined to Christ, cf. Eph. 2:5 and Col. 2:13, by the "Majestic Hand" of God sovereignly, I have received, or uploaded you might say, the "Mind" of Christ. Having been given the "Mind of Christ", I now know all Christ knows whether or not I focus on it or not. I now can "search" the deep things of God.
Since God is Light and I am a Son of Light now by His doing and not mine, I can search all things. Nothing is hidden from His sight. Nothing is hidden from my sight in Christ.
thanks for your thoughts which have some sharpness to them.
Michael
Simplicity means God doesn't have parts. Do you really think God has parts?
God be with you,
Dan
With comments about "mystery" and "divinisation", JNORM will quickly recruit you into the Eastern Orthodox Church. But the Trinity isn't a Billionity. The passages you cite speak of our becoming holy, not our becoming God.
God be with you,
Dan
and you point is?
By the way, I am studying eastern thought and find this western way of thinking is quite a bit west of east and they must think as we here and we must think as they there and maybe we can both think together to understand the Way of Babble before we became so many ways of babble! :)
proofs?
Gen 11:1 Now the whole earth had one language and the same words.
Gen 11:2 And as people migrated from the east, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there.
michael
I wouldn't use the word "parts", but I don't see anything wrong with a complex unity. To be honest, I don't really know what the "essence" of God really is. To say that it's simple or complex is really unknown. I see it as in the realm of God's transcendence.
I also see both the Son as well as the Holy Spirit as being "of" the Father's being/essence.
So in that sense I see it as complex, but as far as what His essence is ....well that's unknown to me.
In your podcast you talk about God's love in regards to His Essence.
What's wrong with a cause and affect relationship between the Father, Son & Holy Spirit? What's wrong with movement?
If both the Son & Holy Spirit share the Father's being then why wouldn't there be movement? Why wouldn't there be communication?
Why can't a Spiritual Being act within Himself? Why can't a Spiritual Being move within Himself?
Why must you go out of your way to protect the doctrine of "Divine simplicity"?
If you don't have cause & affect then you automatically have "stasis"/"Static"/"inaction".
JNORM888
My response is (here).
Enjoy!
-TurretinFan
First you wrote:
“The other side of this mystery is as a "Spirit filled" Christian, now "conjoined" to Christ. Being "now" conjoined to Christ, cf. Eph. 2:5 and Col. 2:13, by the "Majestic Hand" of God sovereignly, I have received, or uploaded you might say, the "Mind" of Christ. Having been given the "Mind of Christ", I now know all Christ knows whether or not I focus on it or not. I now can "search" the deep things of God.
Since God is Light and I am a Son of Light now by His doing and not mine, I can search all things. Nothing is hidden from His sight. Nothing is hidden from my sight in Christ.”
Dan responded with:
“The passages you cite speak of our becoming holy, not our becoming God.”
You then responded with:
“Dan,
and you point is?”
When you make statements such as “Having been given the ‘Mind of Christ’, I now know all Christ knows whether or not I focus on it or not.” You are making false statements. You **do not** have the knowledge that Christ has. He is God you are not. The Christian will never ever attain to the same amount of knowledge that God has. You also said that “I now can ‘search’ the deep things of God.” According to scripture it is only the Holy Spirit who can search the deep things of God,(see 1 Cor. 2:10-11 which says only the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God . . .Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God”) not us. So again you make a statement that is false. You further compound these errors when you write that “Nothing is hidden from His sight. Nothing is hidden from my sight in Christ.”
You have interpreted scripture incorrectly leading to false conclusions about yourself.
That is what Dan’s point is. He said it very gently and nicely when he said the passages you cite do not speak about us becoming God (“not our becoming God.”). Michael you need to clearly distinguish between yourself and God. God is the creator you are a creature. As such his knowledge will always be much greater than yours. You make a major error to claim equivalent knowledge with God. That is what Dan was talking to you about and that was his point.
Robert
Both Rob & Dan are right. What you said sounds more like Mormonism. Even Eastern Orthodoxy won't go that far.
When we are united to Christ we become and are becoming a "lowercase g, not capital "G".
And the process isn't complete until we are "glorified".
But even when we are "glorified" we won't know everything. We will be on a journy of learning for eternity.
We will never become "god" with a capitol "G".
We will always remain creatures, just creatures that were joined with the "Divine nature".
JNORM888
first off, thank you for your reproof. It is indeed an expression of your kindness and goodwill towards me. Thank you.
Secondly, If I might request of you this, from now on, let your reproof be yours and not another's.
It is silly to speak around the very thing you are looking at, speaking on Dan's behalf, this way. You come across as a silly boy hiding behind mommy's skirt [Dan] and peeking around it to see if the coast is clear.
Be more direct. I am a big boy and I doubt you are the devil and he has hit me far harder than you will ever.
As for interpretation. Yours clearly is a bit different than mine. hmmmmm :)
As I have said before I will not strive with you. I will state unequivocally my point as I have. You judge it. That is the purpose of the Holy Christian Church by the power of the Holy Ghost:
Eph 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
Eph 4:15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
As for the things I have opened up in making comments, by the Spirit of Grace, which I indeed have, I stand on my interpretations of what I have laid out.
Is it error? No. Yes, as far as you are concerned. :)
You indeed have not even given it much thought as to my intents and if you did, you would have received from the Holy Ghost Himself the necessary revelation to "understand" the spiritual thoughts I was writing.
As for making myself "one" with the Holy Trinity, I cite these verses alone although I could open up the Scriptures from many portions, but in the interest of developing a dialog with you maintaining this taught by the Apostle Paul:::> Eph 4:1 I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called,
Eph 4:2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love,
Eph 4:3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
....and not shutting that opportunity off between us, I paste these verses in my own defense, only:
Joh 17:22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
Joh 17:23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.
Joh 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me.
Joh 17:26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."
I will interpret the Word this way and address the whole of that that you speak of about me above, addressing the whole in this manner. As you can maybe now realize, the error has now shifted from me back to you? I will paste the verses from 1 Corinthians 2 and make some concluding comment:
1Co 2:9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"--
1Co 2:10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
1Co 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
1Co 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
True, you indeed are correct that for any "made alive" human so that their spirit is conjoined to Christ's Spirit by the sanctifying work of the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of God must first act upon the dead spirit, i.e., my dead spirit and yours and anyone Whom God shall draw to Himself.
But you stopped short there Robert and did not come full circle, putting the full context into your quotation, yes? You in fact have proved my point by your error as Paul writes about one such as yourself, "....for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.", in judging this, me, a True spiritual man. Do you not realize that when the Holy Ghost "reveals" the deep things of God to a dead spirit, that dead spirit is now MADE ALIVE in Christ and what was dead is now alive?
So, I know I can get on a roll here with you and we can go at each other's interpretation of God's Acts of blessings and giving His Gifts to us by the Holy Ghost sent to the dead spirit, mine and everyone's Whom God has Called and Elected before the foundation of this creation, out of this world. This world is sown with many sons of the devil who are ruled by the devils in their times and seasons; cf. Matthew 13.
It's not necessary for tit' for tat' and for now, I will wait it out to read your response to this response to your response about my comments directed to Dan.
I also have a question for you though; "didn't you just love TF's remarks to Dan"?
TF wrote this about Dan: [Dan is also correct in that, when considering what within God caused God to create what he did, logical priority is given to God's nature/attributes. Thus, we can view the actions/decisions of God as flowing out of the nature of God, although there is no sequence within God (though yet, as part of the Trinitarian marvel, there is communion within the Godhead).]
Powerful stuff spiritually and so clear, don't you agree?
Isn't it similar to what Arminius wrote when we read this attribution to Arminius?
Arminius: [The Life of God, which comes to be considered under the second [momentum] cause of motion in the Divine Nature, is an act flowing from the Essence of God, by which his Essence is signified to be in action within itself. (Psalm xlii. 2; Heb. iii. 12; Num. xiv. 21.)].
I agree with TF on most things he puts forth, not on everything, but this here is clearly a place where we can all agree, don't you think, that is, me, a Christian, you and Dan, Arminian and TF, a Calvinist???
michael
well, read my response to Robert.
As you will be well aware, I disagree with your position as well.
I do believe you don't know what you just asserted.
michael
Sorry about the delay... first chance to get in here and read the comments...
I agree with Roberts' clarification. We are not God, nor do we become God. I hope you don't interpret the passages you quote as saying we become God. Do you?
God be with you,
Dan
What's wrong with a cause and affect relationship between the Father, Son & Holy Spirit? What's wrong with movement?
Cause/effect would imply change. Since God is perfect, He doesn't change. I don't have a problem with movement, so long as it's not physical movement. God is Spirit, not body.
Thanks for clarifying theosis.
God be with you,
Dan
no, we are not God, God Is, They are Eternal.
I was formed in the womb, with an "eternal purpose".
Mysteries abound. Here is one of them.
I am glad you are taking the time to bring out clarification.
Somehow I believe have the wars that have been fought already were because of the offense of a word or thought or idea that wasn't fully clarified!
Thanks Dan!!
But while we are on the subject, maybe we can at some time in the future look at several Words the Holy Ghost skillfully had those He chose to be the vessels to pen His Word to those He sanctified in Christ to study to be approved by?
When the Bible says "I change not" & "I am the same yesturday, today,.....I forgot the rest of the verse.
But isn't it talking about "moral charactor"?
I see a difference or distinction between a change in moral charactor vs a change of movement.
If God can't move then the Son can't be God because he became man. That was a change. I see problems with that......if "perfection" must mean stasis. I maybe wrong about this, but the scriptures seem to paint a picture of "not changing in regards to moral charactor".
Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. Take care and God bless
JNORM888
no, we are not God, God Is
Very glad to hear that!!! You had us worried for a moment there.
God be with you,
Dan
The EOC recognizes the Chalcedon council, no? I understand this issue is the main difference between the Coptic Church and EOC today. From the confession:
Following the holy Fathers, we unanimously teach and confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: the same perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity, the same truly God and truly man, composed of rational soul and body; consubstantial with the Father as to his divinity and consubstantial with us as to his humanity; "like us in all things but sin." He was begotten from the Father before all ages as to his divinity and in these last days, for us and for our salvation, was born as to his humanity of the virgin Mary, the Mother of God.
We confess that one and the same Christ, Lord, and only-begotten Son, is to be acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division, or separation The distinction between natures was never abolished by their union, but rather the character proper to each of the two natures was preserved as they came together in one person and one hypostasis.
Isn’t one aspect of this rather complex element of Christology, the idea that God became man without a change to His Divine Nature?
The Coptics say Christ has one nature: fully divine and fully human. But in contrast, Chalcedon says Christ has two natures: one fully divine the other fully human, but they come together in one person.
It seems to me that that Coptic view is susceptible to the problem you pose (i.e. that the incarnation changes God’s nature), but Chalcedon view isn’t.
As far as movement, so long as you mean spiritual, not physical movement, I have no objection to the idea of divine movement. But if you mean physical, I think that contradicts divine omni-presence and incorporality.
God be with you,
Dan
When you make statements such as “Having been given the ‘Mind of Christ’, I now know all Christ knows whether or not I focus on it or not.” You are making false statements. You **do not** have the knowledge that Christ has. He is God you are not. The Christian will never ever attain to the same amount of knowledge that God has. You also said that “I now can ‘search’ the deep things of God.” According to scripture it is only the Holy Spirit who can search the deep things of God,(see 1 Cor. 2:10-11 which says only the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God . . .Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God”) not us. So again you make a statement that is false. You further compound these errors when you write that “Nothing is hidden from His sight. Nothing is hidden from my sight in Christ.”
Natamllc do you now admit that you do not know “all Christ knows whether or not I focus on it or not”? So you admit your knowledge is not equal to the knowledge that Christ has. So you do not know all Christ knows?
Natamllc do you also now admit that you cannot search the deep things of God?
Natamllc do you now admit that your claim that “Nothing is hidden from His sight. Nothing is hidden from my sight in Christ” is a false claim?
You seemed to back off from these earlier statements, do you now admit your comments were mistakes? That you should not have expressed things the way that you did?
Robert
with all do respect, you are being quite silly and childish!
What is your point?
It is your sort who have caused a war for a word insisting on a right and wrong position!
Here is what Jesus taught, possibly you can go and learn from Him?
Luk 16:8 The master commended the dishonest manager for his shrewdness. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light.
and here too:
Joh 12:34 So the crowd answered him, "We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?"
Joh 12:35 So Jesus said to them, "The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going.
Joh 12:36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them.
Preadventure you might heed what was written in Hebrews?
Heb 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,
Heb 5:13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.
Would you both please let this drop? I just don't see this conversation going anywhere positive.
Robert, Natamllc admitted that we are not God.
Natamllc, calling Robert silly and childish is rude.
God be with you,
Dan
"As far as movement, so long as you mean spiritual, not physical movement, I have no objection to the idea of divine movement. But if you mean physical, I think that contradicts divine omni-presence and incorporality."
I see. I think I understand what you are saying now. I'm sorry for causing a fuss.
Thanks for explaining. I appreciate it.
JNORM888