Action – Evaluation of Arminian grounds for LFW
- Arminians say that without self-determining power, we have no power of action, acts are not our own, and we must be passive.
- This isn’t the way people use “action” in common speech.
- Used this way action is either causeless or an infinite regression of causes.
- When we speak of a first cause, if nothing causes something, nothing could prevent it, so therefore it is necessary.
- The common notion of action is the effects of the will.
- Arminians think of action as self-determination, because the motion of our bodies is caused by our wills – so they assume the same applies to the motion of our wills.
- God is necessarily good yet responsible, which disproves the idea that our actions must be free from necessity for us to be responsible.
My Response
#1 is correct, but let me add a bit more to avoid equivocation. Edwards is getting to the difference between agent and event causation. The two key concepts here are:- the difference between acting and being acted upon
- the range of possibilities intrinsic to things
Wouldn’t you be shocked if the bike hopped up and rolled off? But you be surprised if the man stood up and walked away. This is the intuitive distinction we make between agents and other things.
Let’s say the bike is a 10 speed. The bike can be switched into any of the 10 gears but can’t be switched into an 11th gear. This is what it means to intrinsically possess a range of effects. But another object must act on the bike for the gears to switch, so this is why we say it’s passive and the starting place of action isn’t intrinsic to the object.
Points #2, 5 & 6 will be discussed when we get to parts IV.III and IV.IV. Points #3 and #7 were dealt with here and here.
I did want to say a bit about #4, the idea that if nothing causes something, nothing could prevent it. Part of the issue here is that Edwards ignores necessary causes (X is a necessary cause of Y if without X, Y cannot happen, but with X, Y may or may not happen). For more on the difference between necessary and sufficent causes please see this article: link.
But let’s adapt Edwards ‘argument for him: if nothing is a sufficient cause of something, nothing could have prevented it. In this form, is it true? No. Just because we self-determine our actions, does not mean God could not prevent us from doing so. He could get rid of our freewill, or even us. But what about this further adaptation: if nothing is a sufficient cause of God’s action, nothing could prevent it. Is this true? No. An event is either: necessary, impossible or possible (i.e. neither necessary or impossible). One cannot reason that something is necessary just because is not impossible. It may simply be possible. The issue is not what can prevent the agent from doing something, but rather, what can the agent do?
Comments
I don't really know where you intend on finishing your presentation and I am at a great disadvantage in that I am a johnny come lately.
I want to respond to the first part of this portion.
I am not into striving. I want to stay clear of that. I want to be judged by you and by any who care to judge me based on the understanding explicit or implicit in my comments.
Your words above are a reasonable basis for putting forth an ideal here.
Here is what I read quoting what you printed:::>
[[The two key concepts here are:
the difference between acting and being acted upon
the range of possibilities intrinsic to things Agents possess the intrinsic possibility of both acting and being acted upon. Things beside agents can only be acted upon.]]
I will limit myself to this quotation of yours.
Within it I will build this ideal:::>
Salvation is an action fulfilled on the Cross that only those upon whom God has put "His Faith" will respond to, receiving it as a Gracious Gift.
What is inherent in this Gracious Gift?
Paul the Apostle writes:
Rom 1:14 I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish.
Rom 1:15 So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."
What does this mean?
Paul means to say that in the "Gospel" one comes to understand, sees and receives "Righteousness" apart from any works of righteousness inherent in the Law of Righteousness done by the one doing it to obtain that Righteousness as the intended end.
There are only two courses one can take to obtain this Righteousness revealed by the Gospel.
One course is the failed course of obtaining Righteousness by works of the Law of Righteousness.
The course that we, the Elect, obtain Righteousness by, is the Gospel course.
Now to the Agent of Salvation and the recipient of Salvation by the agent acting upon the one intended to receive Salvation, that Gracious Gift, Righteousness.
We read this in the Book of Hebrews:
Heb 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."
Heb 1:7 Of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire."
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."
Heb 1:10 And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end."
Heb 1:13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?
Now note well this revelation from Revelation chapter 7:
Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Rev 7:10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Rev 7:11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12 saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen."
What then is my conclusion?
The angels are "sent" to the "heirs" of "Salvation".
In Chapter Seven of the Book of the Revelation we read that "people" are declaring before God His "Salvation". Hebrews One shows us who the "agents" are that act upon those "people", i.e., the Elect of God.
And the Angels are before the Throne of God worshipping and declaring:::>
"Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen."
The angels sent are the "Agents" of Christ's Salvation gotten by His Bloody death on the Cross of Our Salvation, His humble burial and His Triumphantful resurrection
back to His Eternal Place in Glory for His Elect, the Bride of Christ, the Wife of the Lamb, the Holy Christian Church, the City which has foundations whose builder and maker is God, that River whose streams make Glad the City of God, the Holy Dwelling Places of the Most High.
Psa 46:4 There is a river whose streams make glad the city of God, the holy habitation of the Most High.
Psa 46:5 God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved; God will help her when morning dawns.
Psa 46:6 The nations rage, the kingdoms totter; he utters his voice, the earth melts.
Psa 46:7 The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our fortress. Selah
The Elect of God are those chosen by God. The Elect know they are chosen by God by His Faith that comes into them by Hearing the Word of God because of the Agents sent to them, acting upon them sufficiently enough that they receive His Faith and Believe the Gospel obtaining the Salvation of God by Him, the Righteousness of God by Faith and not by works.
You said: The Elect of God are those chosen by God. The Elect know they are chosen by God by His Faith that comes into them by Hearing the Word of God because of the Agents sent to them, acting upon them sufficiently enough that they receive His Faith and Believe the Gospel obtaining the Salvation of God by Him, the Righteousness of God by Faith and not by works.
Like a lazer, you got straight to the key issue. After finishing up this series on Edwards, I plan on getting into effectual grace next. I will defer commenting until then. But for the moment I have a question for you. What passages of scripture do you think teach irresistible grace?
God be with you,
Dan
thank you for your kindness first of all.
I would that robert and I could find the same ground to stand on?
Secondly, you will find that I am quite wet behind the ears when it comes to questions like that one, [[irresistable grace]].
I would need to know your definition of that phrase as I don't recall any verse with that phraseology? Is irresistable grace a concept of a reformation ideology?
I stay away from dogma and doctrine at the outset of questions of this nature. I want to stay true to the True Word of God notwithstanding the debates on which manuscripts and translations one bases their reasoning from.
So, if there is a definition of that phrase, irresistable grace, please post it and I would be in an little better position to quote the Word of God afterwards.
I would assume that we all agree that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, wholly a man, born of a Virgin after the Adamic flesh line, Adam and Eve and conception?
And with that as a premise for discovery, I would think or assume we are not too far apart on the fact that the Sovereign God is irresistable in that His Word is final? We have been appointed once to die and then the judgment.
I would say this from two verses of Scripture quoted now:::>
Psa 34:6 This poor man cried, and the LORD heard him and saved him out of all his troubles.
Psa 34:7 The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear him, and delivers them.
Psa 34:8 Oh, taste and see that the LORD is good! Blessed is the man who takes refuge in him!
Psa 34:9 Oh, fear the LORD, you his saints, for those who fear him have no lack!
Psa 34:10 The young lions suffer want and hunger; but those who seek the LORD lack no good thing.
Psa 34:11 Come, O children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the LORD.
Psa 34:12 What man is there who desires life and loves many days, that he may see good?
Psa 34:13 Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit.
Psa 34:14 Turn away from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it.
and this one:::>
Psa 50:16 But to the wicked God says: "What right have you to recite my statutes or take my covenant on your lips?
Psa 50:17 For you hate discipline, and you cast my words behind you.
Psa 50:18 If you see a thief, you are pleased with him, and you keep company with adulterers.
Psa 50:19 "You give your mouth free rein for evil, and your tongue frames deceit.
Psa 50:20 You sit and speak against your brother; you slander your own mother's son.
Psa 50:21 These things you have done, and I have been silent; you thought that I was one like yourself. But now I rebuke you and lay the charge before you.
Psa 50:22 "Mark this, then, you who forget God, lest I tear you apart, and there be none to deliver!
Psa 50:23 The one who offers thanksgiving as his sacrifice glorifies me; to one who orders his way rightly I will show the salvation of God!"
To the first quote, Ps. 34, it does seem to me from where I sit that this is appealing to those who are misguided and need to be directed into Salvation, yes?
And to the second quote, Ps. 50, it does seem that this is opening up the possibility for the "wicked" to receive "salvation" by the correction in their conduct and behavior, yes?
By His Grace and for His Glory
michael
Is irresistable grace a concept of a reformation ideology?
Yes.
I stay away from dogma and doctrine at the outset of questions of this nature. I want to stay true to the True Word of God notwithstanding the debates on which manuscripts and translations one bases their reasoning from.
Sounds like a wise thing to do. That's probably why I disagree with you so infrequently.
So, if there is a definition of that phrase, irresistable grace, please post it and I would be in an little better position to quote the Word of God afterwards.
Regeneration is a secret act of God in which he imparts new spiritual life to us. As the gospel comes to us, God speaks through it to summon us to himself (effective calling) and to give us new spiritual life (regeneration) so that we are enabled to respond in faith. Effective calling is thus God that Father speaking powerfully to us, and regeneration is God that Father and God the Holy Spirit working powerfully in us, to make us alive.
Sometimes the term irresistible grace is used in this connection. It refers to the fact that God effectively calls people and also gives them regeneration, and both actions guarantee that we will respond in saving faith. The term irresistible grace is subject to misunderstanding, however, since it seems to imply that people do not make a voluntary choice in responding to the gospel - a wrong idea, and a wrong understanding of the term irresistible grace. The term does preserve something valuable, however, because it indicates that God's work reaches into our hearts to bring about a response that is absolutely certain - even tough we respond voluntarily.
Wayne Grudem from Systematic Theology (pg. 699)
I would assume that we all agree that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, wholly a man, born of a Virgin after the Adamic flesh line, Adam and Eve and conception?
Yes, provided we add quickly that Christ was both fully God and fully man, which is what I think you are saying, right?
God be with you,
Dan
to your last question, my answer is "yes".
I am a bit off in my reasonings from some of your semantics and it might just be our intelligence, the pedagogy we went through to be able to openly and freely discuss these things.
I come out of a very repressed community of "Indians".
To us, the aboriginal clan in these here lands of our birth dating farther back than Columbus and the subsequent war that purposed Congress of the United States to make today of all days the day of celebration of their independence, we wonder, whose?
We were rightfully here first. Here, as the white guys claimed allegience to "their" Creator, so we too claim allegience to "our" Creator.
Now there is a lot in that sentence and to do it justice we will have to parse it out too.
I'm not interested in that in that I believe I have "found" a "brother", you, as you have, "me"?
I am more interested in redressing the purpose for which Christ, wholly=fully Man, son of Adam is to be redressed by "us" His spiritual "Body" in this world full of sinners, sin natures, Satan, the Beast, the False Prophet, Death and Hades as is our calling and election, Eternal Life, now before we pass. And Eternal Life, now, in these human flesh containers establishing Christ's plans and purposes for us while yet alive in our human flesh containers before we too, pass.
To these I can speak seeing I fully=wholly was a member of "their" society. Happily I am now dead to sin and "Alive" to God through the Wholly=Fully Man, Christ Jesus' acts of redeeming Righteousness used by God Our Heavenly Father to reconcile me to Himself. He has made peace with me too through Christ. He was sent to redeem. I am who He died for, too, one such as I am.
I make no distinctions when it comes to "mankind" generally. I test the spirits though and if a human does not confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and dwelt on the earth, born of a Virgin, raised a Jew and died as the Savior for Adam's pure race, then I leave off with them hoping to love them only in that that God would have me love them, seeing I will have no part of them but to "love" my enemies as God would have me do.
Of the Holy Christian Church, well, there is just so much time on earth to be a part of Her actively carrying out the Eternal Purpose and Plan assigned and seeing there is not much left to do but those things God would have us to do daily, until we too individually pass from this human being, this flesh and blood container, as I like to describe it, to that "Heavenly" Body where we will dwell for Eternity wholly=fully a part of Christ as His Body, I want to redeem my time too seeing we live in evil days.
Now to one, one is assigned to do these things and to another, one is assigned to do those things.
These things and those things of others, I have found I am not a very good judge of, so I simply want to walk it out with all daily mankind leaving Judgment to God Himself and the Holy Ghost.
Where I want to be active in Judgment is where God through Christ has placed me, fully=wholly aware of my delegated authority to exercise His Godly Judgments.
An example of what I am describing here is found here at this portion of the Sared writings:::>
1Co 5:3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing.
1Co 5:4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
These verses are so maligned and distorted today one rarely has a clear understanding of the depth of meaning being conveyed within them.
Let me respond briefly, ever so briefly to these verses lest I go off hopping down a bunny rabit trail.
Note though these verses have a powerful "positive" outcome though the temporary sufferings this man went through when weighed carefully with Paul's other comments about him in 2 Corinthians.
And it has to have a powerful "negative" impact on Satan himself in what he is herein commanded to do by this one, the Apostle Paul's authority given to him by God's Grace so that those called and elected to Grace might be healed once receiving the pure Grace Christ died for the Elect to receive.
Paul makes a powerful judgment.
What is happening then?
This man is "turned" over to Satan for the destruction of his "flesh" that his "spirit" may be saved!!!
What, wait just a minute here. What is really going on then? Could it be this concept of "irresistable" Grace?
I thought the devils were to come and destroy us? That's what I was taught. Jesus said Satan comes to Kill, Steal and Destroy. But here we read and hopefully come to see that only the man's flesh is destroyed, or the process of leaving the container is speeded up for him, his flesh and blood container where his body, soul and spirit abide so that his "spirit" is saved. Could this be a prescription for the premature ending of an Elect's term in office as one of God's called Elect in this world?
In any event, that must make the devil mad, don't you perceive?
Satan's doom is sure. He has been judged already and clearly in the Book of the Revelation we read he is thrown into the Lake of Fire.
One's spirit being "saved" is clearly not that "judgment", the Lake of Fire, Satan will dwell in for eternity when he finally is thrown there.
So I conclude that what judgment Paul was exercising that I am pointing to there in 1 Cor. 5 was Godly Gracious, Merciful "Apostolic" judgment so that the misguided pervert, you might say, was saved from the wrath that awaits the beast, the false prophet, Satan, Death, Hades and those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life.
This is our hope, is it not? There is a final judgment, the horrible suffering and affliction the Lake of Fire afflicts upon one who ends up there!!!!
Let your readers be warned. There is a consequence and judgment for utterly and completely hating God and rebelling against God, rejecting God and His forgiveness and Grace and Mercy and Peace!
You might find all you just read fully dogmatic and doctrinal? How ironic? :)
In any event, hurry up and get through this that you have embarked on and then let's tango in what is forthcoming by you. :)
Grace, Mercy and Peace to you, from God our Heavenly Father, from Jesus Christ sent and daily now in the Beloved, Holy and Precious Holy Ghost, wholly=fully God who dwells in us.
Michael
I'm not interested in that in that I believe I have "found" a "brother", you, as you have, "me"?
Absolutly. :-)
Thank you for sharing your thoughts here.
Let your readers be warned. There is a consequence and judgment for utterly and completely hating God and rebelling against God, rejecting God and His forgiveness and Grace and Mercy and Peace!
Amen.
God be with you,
Dan